Thursday, January 19, 2023

Anti-Proselytism Bergoglio Again Defended by Michael Lofton

Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Proselytism and Evangelisation - Michael Lofton encouraged Fact-Checking - and I Did That. · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Anti-Proselytism Bergoglio Again Defended by Michael Lofton

What They WON'T Tell You About Pope Francis and Evangelism
Reason & Theology, 18.I.2023

My answers:

I think you are bearing false witness.

"Il proselitismo è il più forte veleno della via ecuménica" ... (not sure about the words after veleno) ...

Certainly there are some types of evangelism that he is for, like accepting discussions by someone genuinely wanting to know why Catholics are Catholics and not for instance Atheists or Evangelicals, but he is very much opposed to stating Lutherans are outside the true Church, or that the Reformation was a crime, or that Atheists have made Science not just an idol, but a very unreliable oracle, like with Heliocentrism, Big Bang, Millions of Billions of years, Molecules to Man Evolution.

These things, which he is very clearly against, also belong in good evangelising efforts.

1:36 I have already stated, the distinction "Pope Francis" alias Bergoglio makes between "proselytising" and "evangelising" is abusive and peevish.

2:30 After reading through the audience, fairly quickly, two things are clear.
1) Evangelising is a kind of pastoral and can be exercised by legitimate pastors who are spiritually highly prepared, and their associates, not by a random layman who'd like his friend to be Catholic so he doesn't need to face the flames;
2) This pastoral is directed to lapsed Catholics, but not to people "outside our flock" ... which bypasses that all non-Catholics are on some level heirs of lapsed members of the true religion. All non-Catholics are that way deprived.

3:14 The actual pastoral Sacred Heart actually did threaten with Hell fire.

7:12 due attention payed.

It's not slander to conclude that his distinction is abusive.

7:41 "to proselytise is something pagan"

Like ... what paganism?

If someone said to believe in superstitious oracles is pagan, I could confirm, I could show how Greek tragedy documents the nefarious influence of the devil in Delphi, the Pythonic spirit Apollon, namesake of a physician called Apollon, probably after the oracle.

Sth to think of before you believe everything Fauci says.

If someone said repetitive prayers or using prayer phrases as mantras is pagan, I would say ... well, Hindus and Buddhists, and especially the Hindus are concerned, certainly do that and certainly are species of paganism, but definitely not the one Jesus was after in Matthew 6:7.

But if someone says proselytising is pagan ... is he targetting Muslims?

And where did they get that from except from Jews and from Christians?

8:39 Would someone tell me why this is not what Christ is calling us to?

8:44 Yes, bringing people to the truth and bringing people to team truth seem to be pretty close in practise ...

Why is "Pope Francis" asking people to second guess their own motives and be lame about not having the exact right motivation, even if one is saying the right thing?

If he means "saying the right thing in the wrong spirit will put people off" ... part of the answer to that is, sometimes some people need to be put off so they don't impede the conversion of others, and part of the answer is, we are not God's grace. God's grace of converting someone does not depend on us never making a gaffe or never doing anything in the wrong spirit.

The equivalent in sacramental theology would be someone who pretended a priest could only absolve or turn bread into God's Flesh if he was both in a state of grace and in a very pious mood, and any other occasions his sacraments would be invalid and non-salvific.

So, when "Pope Francis" is so warning against evangelising for the wrong motive or in the wrong spirit, and calls that "proselytising" as "distinct from" evangelising ... what does that say about his theology? Does he believe we are collectively God, or that God can only work through our very purest efforts? That's kind of the wrong idea of God.

9:07 "an open heart that draws near to everyone"

His heart is certainly not near to controversialists ... which we know St. Paul was in the synagogue of Berea. Which we know he was on the Areopagus.

If a controversialist is on the wrong side, what's wrong with trying to win him with the method he loves, controversy? Ah no, the controversialist, to be fully Catholic, needs to renounce being a controversialist. Well, duh ... that's not what the Church told Gilbert Keith Chesterton, or John Henry Newman, or Hilaire Belloc, or Frank Sheed and Maisie Ward.

It's not what the Church expected of St. Thomas Aquinas or of Duns Scotus, of blessed memory.

But perhaps Bergoglio prefers the memory of an Anglican modernist whom he buried as a "Catholic bishop" (and who would have buried him as an Anglican bishop, had he died first). I mentioned the not too happy memory of Tony Palmer. Because you see, Tony Palmer is all about second guessing our motives. And not standing up for every jot and tittle of the faith of the Gospels.

9:34 A very obvious complaint about Bergoglio is, by the fact of lambasting proselytism as insufficiently pastoral, he is himself preferring to pastor only "exquisite sheep" ...

10:21 Some guys have very broadly brushed definitions of TV preachers.

He would probably consider Kent Hovind or Ken Ham as equivalents of Joel Osteen ....

His predecessor as antipope, while under his predecessor, arguably tended to paint antiracist Ken Ham as a racist, because, like Agassiz, he can be termed Creationist ... and Agassiz was indeed a racist.

Final words (as to this video):

I think I can enlighten you somewhat about what Bergoglio calls proselytising.

If a Zionist, Jewish, Antimissionary calls it proselytising, Bergoglio probably will call it proselytising, because they approach him via Rabbi Skorka.

If a Zionist, Jewish, Antimissionary doesn't call it proselytising, it's probably because a Jew would anyway consider it "kind of cute, but a lame argument" ....

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